To: devnull@onion.rain.com (Falcon3 Mailing list) From: devnull@onion.rain.com (Falcon3 Mailing list) Reply-To: devnull@onion.rain.com (Falcon3 Mailing list) Sender: devnull@onion.rain.com (Falcon3 Mailing list) Errors-To: postmaster@onion.rain.com Return-Path: devnull@onion.rain.com (Falcon3 Mailing list) Precedence: bulk Bcc: falcon3-outgoing Subject: Falcon3 Digest V5 : I3 Falcon3 Digest Volume 5 : Issue 3 Thu Nov 11 07:00:09 PST 1993 Compilation copyright (C) 1993 Jeff Beadles Send submissions to "falcon3@onion.rain.com" Send add/drop requests to "majordomo@onion.rain.com" Archives are available via ftp from onion.rain.com [147.28.0.161] and mirrored on cactus.org in /pub/falcon3 Today's Topics: Straining manouvers k138836@ee.tut.fi (Korhonen Tommi) Re: MiG-29 Radar att!ihlpf!opus@uunet.uu.net Bombing tactics "Tony Cecce, Corning, NY" F-16 and GLOC shanev@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ From: k138836@ee.tut.fi (Korhonen Tommi) Subject: Straining manouvers What ar the anti-g staining manouvers? Tensing feet? Step dancing? Lewd thoughts? Does anyone know about those any more? Second. The fellas who hav flown a 'real' simulator of F-16, how does it compare to the game we all love? Did you manage to handle it? (Please, no replies from the real fighter jocks! :-) Ok, go ahead, but don't flame me for the comparison, I just want to know what it felt like) T.Korhonen *** If ever any beauty did I see, *** k138836@cc.tut.fi ** which I desired an got ** Physics & Something *** 'twas but a _dream_ of thee *** ------------------------------- From: att!ihlpf!opus@uunet.uu.net Subject: Re: MiG-29 Radar slb512@trainserv.fastc.wpafb.af.mil (stuart butts/taai/75033) writes: >> From: att!ihlpf!opus@uunet.uu.net >> I don't believe >> any fighter radar can actually give full velocity vector and position >> information on multiple planes simultaneously, but I'm not authority. > >Both the F-15C and F-16C can simultaneously track up to 10 targets while in >Track-While-Scan (TWS) mode. Using AMRAAMs, the F-15C can simultaneously >attack 8 targets, while the F-16C can simultaneously attack 6. The F-14 and >F/A-18 have similar capabilities. Thanks for the info! Could you describe how in the heck a tiny CRT screen can display speed, direction, and altitude information for multiple targets at the same time? Or does the system KNOW this information for missile guidance (or other) purposes, but can only DISPLAY the numbers for one target at a time. Or is this classified? :^) == Mik Butler writes: >He also let me fly the (non-motion) >full-size F-16 simulator the USAF had brought to Farnborough! Lucky you! How did it fly compared to F3's "HiFi" (cough) flight model? >Interestingly >enough, he let the visiting Russian Mig-29 & Su-27 test pilots also fly it.. Hey, if the Soviets were willing to let a Popular Science editor fly a MiG-29 and Su-27 (I believe this was before the breakup), this only seems fair! == stenger@zeus.uni-duisburg.de (Joerg Stenger) writes: >In issue 1 (V5 sic!) Christophe Bonnet wrote about an unrecoverable >black-out in MiG-29. > >I experienced almost the same in IA as I tried to find out the >maximum flight-level for the '29. As I stalled I decided to gain >speed and dove with full AB. When I wanted to pull up at about 20k >feet, I immediately blacked out and didn't recover from that. >Using the track-view I saw my MiG doing one vertical loop after the >other. With every loop the maximum altitude was a bit lower than at >the one before. > >PS: I use the "realistic" flight-model Sounds like your plane was trimmed for low speed, so at the high speed you were going you had way too much up elevator. Rob opus@ihlpf.att.com ------------------------------- From: "Tony Cecce, Corning, NY" Subject: Bombing tactics I've been sitting back, reading the digest, and playing Falcon for quite a while now all the time building up lots of questions. I will try and limit this post to only one question (well, maybe two or three ;-)). My first question comes from the red flag mission to bomb the nuke plant cooling towers. To be blunt the death dot does not seem to do what is advertised. I have been using the following tactic: fly straight and level at ~2,500', speed 400kts, align to the tower, hit the trigger when the dot is on the base of the tower, continue to keep the tower aligned (using rudder), and let the computer release the bombs. The book says the dot indicates where your bombs will hit if released imediately. Yet the computer releases the bombs when the dot is way past the tower. The bombs hit where the dot was when I hit the fire key. What am I missing? The problem with this tactic is I am miles out from the target and the target is too small to accurately hit. I have not tried dive bombing. Will the death dot perform as advertised in this case? Do you manually release the bombs, or do you select the target as above and let the computer do the work? I have searched the WAIS server (what a great resource!!!) and found several articles on bomb strategy. A level approach as I described is a option, although it seems a low dive is the preferred approach. But this still doesn't answer my targetting concerns. There is also a great article in there "Falcon3.0d Tactics (Part 1)" by darons@netcom.com. Part 1 covers missile evasion and enemy logic tactics. I can't seem to find additional parts in the wais. Does anyone else have a copy of the missing parts? If so, these articles look like they would serve as a beginning to a strategy FAQ. Thats all for now, Tony CHICO Cecce P.S. My contribution to the THERE-I-WAS file: There I was playing IA. I took out the MIG-19 escort and went after the AN-12 planning on a guns kill. I came from low and behind, putting more rounds into this plane than any other gun kill I have made. Smoke was pouring out, flames licking at the wings, and chutes started popping as I passed the dead bird. Knowing I had more bogeys somewhere to my six I pulled a 180 turn. Right in front of me was the falling AN-12, and I was lined up perfectly with the string of chutes. My ethics were out to lunch as I pulled and held the gun trigger }:^) and watched chutes collapse. I screwed up and let a few get away (he he...). Getting back to the bogeys I was looking for I hit the Q key. The view I locked onto was of a paratrooper (chute intact) just before he hit the ground. In the back ground was a series of collapsed chutes (now where did they come from?). I instantly knew I was about to see the answer to one of life's great mysteries. The intact lucky paratrooper hit the ground and the chute disappeared leaving the guy standing there. I intently watched as the unfortunate others hit the ground leaving nothing but a big black spot. SO THE ANSWER WAS "They don't bounce, they splat!" (before I get sizzled for being sick, remember someone programmed this) 8-) ------------------------------- From: knutson@mcc.com (Jim Knutson) Subject: Re: Bombing tactics > My first question comes from the red flag mission to bomb the nuke > plant cooling towers. To be blunt the death dot does not seem to do > what is advertised. I have been using the following tactic: fly straight > and level at ~2,500', speed 400kts, align to the tower, hit the trigger > when the dot is on the base of the tower, continue to keep the tower > aligned (using rudder), and let the computer release the bombs. The book > says the dot indicates where your bombs will hit if released imediately. > Yet the computer releases the bombs when the dot is way past the tower. > The bombs hit where the dot was when I hit the fire key. What am I missing? > The problem with this tactic is I am miles out from the target and the > target is too small to accurately hit. SH screwed with the bombing stuff and came up with a hybrid kind of CCIP/CCRP system. If it was CCIP, the bombs would drop immediately and hit whatever the dot was on. With CCRP, it extends the aim point ahead and calculates how long it takes to get to the release point. If you keep the vertical bar aligned, then release will occur when the timing line hits the release line (this is all from memory as I haven't done this in a while). I don't know why they did this. > I have not tried dive bombing. Will the death dot perform as advertised > in this case? Do you manually release the bombs, or do you select the > target as above and let the computer do the work? It might if the release parameters are all in sync. > I have searched the WAIS server (what a great resource!!!) and found > several articles on bomb strategy. A level approach as I described is > a option, although it seems a low dive is the preferred approach. But > this still doesn't answer my targetting concerns. There is also a great > article in there "Falcon3.0d Tactics (Part 1)" by darons@netcom.com. > Part 1 covers missile evasion and enemy logic tactics. I can't seem to > find additional parts in the wais. Does anyone else have a copy of the > missing parts? If so, these articles look like they would serve as a > beginning to a strategy FAQ. No additional parts that I know of. I think there may have been some planned, but Daron left SH before he got around to it. There's a chapter on tips, tactics, and strategy in the USENET Guide to Falcon 3. You might try there for additional info. It won't be as current or as extensive as the WAIS server, but it will be better organized. Jim Knutson | | knutson@mcc.com --=oOo=-- cs.utexas.edu!milano!knutson + Wk: (512) 338-3362 Check Six! ------------------------------- From: "Greg Stelmack" Subject: Thanks + SAM range + Padlock view First, a small note of thanks. I've been through many of the USENET collected information and utility files available and they've greatly enhanced my enjoyment of Falcon 3.0. Especially info about the debug mode -- it brings a whole new dimension to the game! It's nice to see some of the detail that SH put into the game. Thank-you to all who have contributed to those archives. Now, has anyone else noticed a problem with SAM ranges in the game? It seems like they'll only fire at you when you are in range, but I've been hit well beyond (SA-7s at much more than a mile, and hit once by an SA-N-6 at more than 100 -- it followed me to my airbase and hit me while landing). Also, I've learned to dodge most radar guided SAMs, but any hints on the SA-7 would be appreciated (I think my problem here is that by the time I hit Padlock to see the missile, it's too close for countermeasures...) Finally, does anyone know if SH has plans to fix the distortion in the Padlock view? F15-III really shines here, as the plane parts you can see move up and down as your view does, making it real easy to know where you are looking in relation to where you are going. After numerous tries, I just can't get used to how F3 handles this, and end up using Padlock strictly to ID enemies. I always use front view to hunt them down. On the other hand, I found F15-III's Padlock easy to use and immensely helpful in a dogfight. -- Greg Stelmack (Greg_Stelmack@mta03.sbi.com) -- Salomon Applications Developer, BTO Tampa -- (813) 558-6189 ------------------------------- From: Michael Sutton Subject: Falcon Squadron in D.C. The 703rd Falcon Squadron located in Maryland, Washington DC, and northern Virginia is looking for recruits. It doesn't matter how good you are or are not. If you are new to Falcon/Mig-29, this is a great way to improve. If you are very good, this is a great way for us to improve. The squadron currently has about 16 members and has existed for about one year. Many of us fly head-to-head by modem on a regular basis in the evenings. We generally get together about once every 3 to 4 weeks, hook the PCs up into a network (we have 12 network cards and are getting 12 more), and spend the weekend flying multiple plane engagements and campaigns using both Falcon and Mig-29. The network cards are cheap (20-50 dollars) and we have a number of extra cards for new people to use while they decide whether to join the squadron. If you live in the area and are interested in trying us out, please call me at (703) 671-2251 (leave a message if I'm not home). Our next meeting is this weekend (November 13-14). If you are a member of a similar squadron within a state or two of us, call me or leave a message (caustic@digex.net) and let's arrange a multiple squadron engagement. Michael Sutton caustic@digex.net (703) 671-2251 ------------------------------- From: Chera Bekker Subject: HIFI/Complex Stuart wrote: > This particular aspect of the model is definately messed up. Either the engine > is generating too much thrust at low power settings, or the parasite drag term > (which I'm sure they don't even model ) is too low. > I also prefer the complex mode, because the flying qualities are much more > accurate than those of HiFi, as well as low altitude energy-maneuverability > characteristics. > - Stuart I think that not the engine but the drag modelling in HIFI is seriously wrong. I have two arguments for that: 1) with your engines off you can glide for many miles without any significant altitude loss. Normally the drag generated by the lift of your wings would slow your plane much faster so you have to use a steeper dive to maintain speed. This obviously means larger altitude loss per travelled mile. 2) When manouvering in a dogfight the energy loss is much larger in HIFI than in Complex. As I am pretty sure that in Complex your engines generates far too much thrust I think the engine modelling in HIFI is better. I think it was mentioned before in the list that in Complex you could stuff your plane with over 30000lbs on ordnance and still take off in a 40 deg. climb. (I haven't checked this yet). I think that to ultimately resolve this debate we need an F-16 pilot who will compare both models. Probably they are both not very good . Chera H.G. Bekker (bekker@tn.utwente.nl) Voice: +3153893107 ELTN 5214 (Applied Physics) Fax: +3153354003 University of Twente 'This magic day when super-science mingles The Netherlands with the bright stuff of dreams' -RUSH ------------------------------- From: shanev@aol.com Subject: F-16 and GLOC >I've got a video documentary about the pilot/modern fighter aircraft >relationship, and the difficulties that both pilots & aircraft designers >now have to face. Mik, What's the name of this video? I'd like to get it. Thanks, ShaneV ------------------------------- [[ End of digest Volume 5 : Issue 3 ]]