To: hitech-sim (Hitech Simulation Mailing list) Reply-To: hitech-sim (Hitech Simulation Mailing list) Errors-To: postmaster@onion.rain.com Precedence: bulk Bcc: hitech-sim-out Subject: Hitech Simulation Digest V1 : I45 Hitech Simulation Digest Volume 1 : Issue 45 Tue Sep 14 06:35:36 PDT 1993 Compilation copyright (C) 1993 Jeff Beadles Send submissions to "hitech-sim@onion.rain.com" Send add/drop requests to "majordomo@onion.rain.com" Archives are available via ftp from onion.rain.com [147.28.0.161] Today's Topics: Tornado: An SAM avoidence Heinz-Bernd Eggenstein (LS2) Subject: Tornado: An SAM avoidence Hi! Andrew (Andrew.Stevens@prg.oxford.ac.uk) wrote: >The crucial trick to taming to the SAMs (100% lethal or otherwise) >is to ensure the ALARM's have time to do their job without the >baddies getting off lots of launches and closing the range. >If you're using ALARM alone in direct mode this pretty much means >dodging out of the way for 10-20 secs before heading back in toward the >SAM area. > [... on using ALARMs in indirect mode ...] I tried this and it works fine, but often it will mess up your time schedule and sometimes I got painted by a CAP or a EWR while maneuvering around. Here is an alternative approach I also tried with some success, I would like to hear comments on it: If your target is close to a SAM and you get a SAM warning right in front of you while approaching your target at >=520 kts, do the following - switch ECM on - start dropping CHAFF (sic!) - do some modest maneuvers but continue to approach the target at high speed. - if you have an ALARM, launch it in direct mode - keep on dropping chaff (especially usefull on a JP233 run: it's not so easy to line up with the runway once you left the route in your flightplan). Dropping chaff and doing some light turns seems to stretch the time betweeen the SAM warning and a missile launch. Often, no SAM at all is launched because the ALARM hits first. If a SAM is launched, you should already be *very* close to the SAM-launcher, and it seems that SAMs are less likely to hit you once you are *very* close to the launcher (the SAM goes straight up first and then seems to loose contact with a low and close enemy, maybe because your aircraft is crossing the missile's field of vision too fast (?????)). This can also be used in combination with indirect mode ALARMS, to decrease the danger of a launch during the ALARMs way down to the SAM-launcher. I also tried dropping chaff during the process of locking onto an enemy aircraft,firing a Skyflash on it and doing a split S at mach 1.1+ to get to the ground fast. I'm still not sure whether this delays enemy missile launches, but I suspect so. Have others tried it? Thanks in advence, and stay low Heinz-Bernd ------------------------------- From: stenger@zeus.uni-duisburg.de (Joerg Stenger) Subject: Re: An SAM avoidence Hein-Bernd wrote: [about how to delay the launch time for SAMS] >[...] -switch ECM on At least this I can confirm. I also noticed that switching on ECM as soon as the first bilp appears delays the launch (even if You fly straight on). > -start dropping CHAFF (sic!) > - do some modest maneuvers [...] I think what this maneuver produces is a "wall" of Chaffs behind You, so the SAM radar controller has difficulties to see *YOU* in front of this wall. I haven't tried that, yet. > -[comments about a fast bypass of the launcher] I don't know how DI has modelled the ground radar of the SAM launcher, but in F3 the ability of a SAM site to get a lock on You would also depend on what type of radar (i.e. CW/Doppler) they use and Your relative position to the site. Joerg "Dancer" Stenger ------------------------------- From: Wilson Chiu Subject: Tornado etc.. Hey, what excellent report by Joerg!! Thank you very much for telling us about your interviews with real Tornado pilots - were they quite helpful and friendly? I was at the International Air Tatoo a couple of months ago (where the MiG 29's crashed!), there were plenty of tornados there, but there weren'y any pilots to talk to the crowd! I found a USAF pilot by his A-10 but he wasn't too forthcoming with my questions. How did you find out about the HUD views? Did they let you see the cockpits or did they tell you about it? I may have made a mistake when I said last week that there was some 20 years difference between the MiG 29 and the YF 22. Does anyone when they started developing the YF 22? The MiG 29 first flew in 1982, so considering they would have started working on the MiG say early 70's, so maybe I should have said about 15 years of difference between the two planes. Does anyone know how much MiG 29 is likeing to cost over here in the UK? I have read that it might be about 20 pounds, if that's true then it's not too bad! Come on Spectrum Holobyte, distribute MiG29!!! Wils "MiG what? Sorry, never heard of it - let alone a release date..." --------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilson S.C. Chiu wils@uk.ac.soton --------------------------------------------------------------------- Vision, Speech & Signal Processing Elecronics & Computer Sci. Univ. of Southampton Southampton SO9 5NH --------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- From: stenger@zeus.uni-duisburg.de (Joerg Stenger) Subject: Re: Tornado etc... Hi Wilson, Thanks for the flowers... > [...] were they [the Tornado pilots] quite helpful and friendly? > How did you find out about the HUD views? Did they let you see the > cockpits or did they tell you about it? They were *very* helpful and friendly. See, the army hasn't that good image here in Germany like in the US. I think that's because we had the third Reich and so on. Moreover the public is quite upset about the noise that birds are making and the costs and so on. We have a politcal discussion here if the German army should or *may* join UN-forces at peace-keeping or peace-making mission. But this list doesn't intend to deal with politics, so I'll go on answer Your questions. As I wrote I got the Tornado manual with me and I showed it to the guys. The reaction was nearly always the same; they took a look at the cabin-picture, took a closer look and called other pilots/WSOs that stood near them to get a look too. I showed them the pictures of the HUD modes and they said "Yeah, that's it! That's exactely what it looks like". One did even climb the stairs to the cockpit in order to see if the radar-altimeter is at the right place. After having talked to them I asked them for a short look into the cockpit but ther faces went sad everytime and they said "Sorry, it's secret". (You can bet that I tried it about 10 times) Well I got the impression that they were quite lucky to talk to some- one who wasn't a complete newbie. My girlfriend said that it has looked very funny how the Belgian F-16 jock and I were flying maneuvers with our arms ;-) (that was as he told me about evasing maneuvers from SAMS) Joerg "Dancer" Stenger ------------------------------- From: dvallis@swamp.alt.ns.ca (Darrin Vallis) Subject: Tornado and Indirect ALARMs..HELP! I've been a lurker on this list since my local system had no internet address, but no more! My last day as a Persona Non Grata. Myself and my brother fly Tornado weapons officer / pilot on missions, which works out well, and have logged 16 hours so far. All the normal bugs like stupid wingmen running you down, soundblaster crashing and an analog throttle impossible to calibrate still don't lessen our enthusiasm for the game. One thing though.....SAMs ! One hit and it's H'Asta La Vista Baby. In an effort to solve this problem we rely heavily on ALARMS. Basicly just blast our way in to the target through the SAM sites with ALARMS on direct mode. This works, sometimes, but there must be a better way. How do I make the ALARM actually work in the indirect mode? It seems that even when I launch at maximum stand-off range (10 nm or 6 on the range clock) they just zoom climb to height, hang and EVENTUALLY fall on nothing! What's the trick? Darrin Vallis dvallis@swamp.alt.ns.ca ------------------------------- From: cvy@newt.phys.unsw.edu.au Subject: the 4108.03. upgrade to F15 III Hi all, has anyone seen this beastie? if so, would you please email me about an internet location. I recently bought the F15III, and the *&^*^ thing locks up in the hanger before you get to do ANYTHING! Sod. I have read the manual untill I'm green (with envy at those that CAN play) and I pat bill (my computer) and say there there, it will work one day and I watch the intro screen but, I really would like to do something. (Idon't like to JUST watch) BTW I recently (last week) managed to con a 486DX266 with local bus and an s3 local bus video. Gosh (let me say that again, gosh) does falcon play nice now! All I have to do is get a decent joystick. Can I mention world circuit here? (well bugger me, I just did, didn't I ... well it just goes to show.) world circuit at 25 frames/sec is quite lovely. So, all in all, bill (my computer, remember) has been a busy lad, but i would like to see the (almost) legendary clouds in F15, so, if anyone has the patch, or knows where I can get it etc. BTW has anyone else had a complaint from a neighbour about playing falcon3 to loud? I had the police around asking me not to yell "kilo mike alpha!" and "yes!" so loud at 4 am. whoops. (BTW also, they assumed I was involved in, well, *ahem* *blush* loud sex. I said that I kinda was.) sorry. Chuck cvy@newt.phys.unsw.edu.au ------------------------------- From: stenger@zeus.uni-duisburg.de (Joerg Stenger) Subject: Re: Tornado and Indirect ALARMs..HELP! Hi Darrin, Welcome to list. > How do I make the ALARM actually work in the indirect mode? We discussed that topic in Issue 43 (and in some earlier ones). You should get it via anon-ftp from onion.rain.com (/pub/hitech-sim/maillist/volume001/issue???). The trick is that the ALARM find its target with a passive radar emmision detector. So You have to do something (almost poping up at some distance) to make the SAM guys light up their radar. Oh, I just read what I've written above and it leads to an important question: Shouldn't the SAM-launcher *always* have turned his radar on??? -I mean, that low-level approach is used to sneak in beyond its radar... But if a SAM laucher has turned on his radar continously the ALARM would do the job without the need for You to pop up. I guess that DI has defined a "sphere" around Your plane and the SAMS will only "appear" when they are in that sphere. That would also fit DIs "weapon-slot"- strategie sombody (Andrew?) has mentioned a few issues ago. Any comments? Joerg "Dancer" Stenger ------------------------------- From: Andrew.Stevens@prg.oxford.ac.uk Subject: Re: Real Tornado's >I had the manual with me and asked several pilots a few things about it. >First of all, the instruments are modelled correct in the front seat. >The crews were very surprised to recognize everything. Only the back- >seat-model is not exactly, i.e. the dimensions are not correct. The weapon- >package display, e.g. is to the lower left of the WSO. All were astonished >that the various HUD modes were correct. >All in all, DI has done a very good job! >I gather they they got almost all this stuff from an RAF >instrument-flying / weapons system simulator.At the Luftwaffe the normal >travelling speed is 420 knts and attack speed is 540 knts. Apparently this was the official doctrine in the RAF as well. However, in a TC documentary a crew (captured in Desert Storm) mentioned that once they got going for real they said ``b****r saving fuel'' (or something to that effect) an accelerated to 500+ knots for pretty much most of their time over enemy territory :-) >I asked the RAF pilot about standard AA-tactics and he said that the ADV >was designed for BVR-kills. A dog-fight would be a bad idea with the >Tornado because of it's weight and miserable turn-rate, compared to other >fighters. It makes you wonder the political pressures the RAF was put under to accept Tornado F3 as their sole front-line fighter. I can imagine the air-force folk wanting F3 as a large part of a mix, but no agile fighters at all (until EFA) can't have been their taste. Mind you, the F3 was, apparently, a big advance over the Phantom. An air-force friend quoted an early F3 pilot's response to a query from a colleague still flying F4K as: ``I could fly it right up your a**e, and there's nothing you could do about it''. I can only assume they reckoned the USAF and the low-countries F16's would do all the messy stuff further east. I can't imagine what the politicos though the Luftwaffe was supposed to do with its Phantoms in the old cold-war days! Maybe act as the ``bait'' in drag maneuvres co-ordinate with USAF F15's? :-) :-( >The pilot has a priority button with which he can override the WSO weapon- >management. If he presses that button the AA weapons are automaticly armed, >i.e. the sidewinders and the guns. This has been implemented in the 1.0b patch I will be uploading as-soon-as-I-can-get-a-certain-person-at-DI-to-remember-to-send-me-a-floppy. (It is already available on the CIX system, but no-one with Internet accesss seems to have an account on this system :-( ) 1.0a has been on CIX for ages. Sigh, Andrew ------------------------------- [[ End of digest Volume 1 : Issue 45 ]]